Linux Needs Java, and Vice Versa
 by Marc Boorshtein, in Editorials - Wed, Jul 11th 2001 00:00 UTC

In October, I wrote an editorial on why VB should not be brought to Linux. One of the key points I touched upon was that VB's strengths lie in its IDE and its ties to ADO, MTS, and now .NET. I said that good replacements for VB were Python and Java. Now I would like to delve deeper into the importance of Java on Linux, and the importance of Linux to Java.

Linux has been used extensively and very successfully as a Web server, but the face of the Web is constantly changing. In its current form, Linux can't compete with Windows without Java on the enterprise level. Many Linux Web servers serve either static content or dynamic content generated via CGI or the popular PHP. Neither of these systems have built-in enterprise functionality. While almost any language can use XML (and in turn use SOAP or XMLRPC to make remote method calls), there is more to enterprise functionality than remote method calls. Enterprise functionality includes remote method calls, load balancing, fail-over, transactions, and a myriad of other stability and scalability functions.

Enter Java. Java already provides this functionality on Linux, without the high price tag of Windows-based solutions or high-end Java Application Server solutions. There is already JBoss, a powerful Open Source EJB server, available for free and completely community supported. Couple this with Jakarta, the Apache Foundation's Java Servlet Engine, and you have an extremely powerful enterprise server. For those who want the safety blanket of commercial support, there is always the Enhydra application server at a very low cost (I believe $99 + support costs). All this on Linux at no or low cost.

There are other advantages to pushing Java on Linux, such as name recognition. When CEOs hear Linux, they might shrug, but when they hear Linux and Java together in the same sentence, they'll start to listen. In the current economic downturn, all companies, small to large, are going to look for ways to save money on IT. Linux can present enterprise-level functionality for pennies compared to the cost of proprietary solutions, which will make any CFO happy.

There is one problem with all of this: Java is not an easy language to learn for beginners. Luckily, no one said you need to know Java to use Java! There are two separations between Java the language and Java the platform. The first is the myriad of languages that will run on Java, the most popular of which is JPython. These languages run directly on the Java platform, and have all functionality of Java. The second is the JNI (Java Native Interface). The JNI allows Java to call native code in C/C++, Python, Perl, or any other language with a JNI binding.

By using a combination of these systems, complex business logic can be built in Java, C, or C++, with interfaces and frontends built in Python, Java, or Perl. This integration allows Web sites and applications to be built quickly and easily in the same component architecture that has served Microsoft so well.

There is a major fault to this whole plan: performance. Java is not exactly known as the fastest system in existence, but the future is bright on this front as well. GCJ, the GCC compiler for Java, is making huge strides. It already supports most of the Java SDK APIs and JNI. It is missing support for RMI and other functionality needed by EJB. Another major problem is that it will only compile programs into a single executable, thus eliminating Java's component architecture.

This is where Sun should come in. Sun now owns Cobalt. Cobalt's servers run Linux. If GCJ can be completed and brought up to speed with Java2, Sun can have high-performance, low-cost Java application servers that can be pitted against Microsoft's upcoming blade offerings. Couple this with Sun's upcoming Peer2Peer services, and you have a software offering that matches and beats anything offered by Microsoft.

There is another reason Sun should work with the community to finish GCJ: C#. Microsoft is basically re-inventing Java on its own .NET platform. Their popular J++ is being geared to be a jumping platform from Java to C#. Sun needs to fortify its position by increasing Java's power and availability.

Finally, there is a reason for Sun to help increase Java's integration with languages such as Python and Perl. VB.NET is incompatible with VB6. VB's terrible OO support has finally caught up with it, and Microsoft had to retool it to be fully object oriented, thus breaking backward compatibility. This is a perfect time to bring VB programmers to Python and Perl, interfacing to the Java platform. It gives VB programmers a simple language to use while also giving them the enterprise functionality they expect with the tools they crave.

All of these pieces fit together to allow a beautiful friendship between Sun and Linux. Once a company is ready to move from small server appliances to enterprise servers, who are they going to call? You guessed it: Sun.

Sun, Linux, and the Open Source Community could make a great team to help extend the causes of everyone involved. Linux finds its way into Microsoft space in the server room as an application server, J2EE extends its position in the face of .NET, Python and Perl find their way into VB's rapid application development space, and Sun increases its revenue and name recognition. Everyone wins. Except Microsoft, of course.

Author's bio: Marc Boorshtein (mboorshtein@yahoo.com) is a junior at Western New England College in Springfield, MA, majoring in Computer Science. He began working in VB five and a half years ago, starting with VB 3. He worked in the MIS department at Process Software in Framingham, MA during the summer of his senior year, and as a consultant at PriceWaterhouseCoopers both this and last summer. He has been using Linux for about 2 years and has since stopped using VB in favor of Java. He is currently running an Open Source project called the Internet Document and Report Server (http://idrs.sourceforge.net/), which merges a tag-based system for accessing databases in Web pages and external Java components to build powerful data-driven Web sites in a team-based environment. The next release will contain many scalability and functionality improvements.

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Referenced categories Programming Language :: Java

Referenced projects GNU Compiler for Java - A GNU compiler extension that allows compilation of Java source and byte code. JBoss - An Enterprise JavaBeans application server.

 Comments

[»] Java's way of preventing bugs (and features)
by olsner - Aug 6th 2001 18:29:36

Java tries to prevent bugs, but I think it does it poorly...

instead of preventing bugs by good design, making it easier to write good code,
Java prevents bugs by removing features, making it harder to write bad code (and good code if you know what you're doing)

in essence, Java prevents bugs from unexperienced programmers, who shouldn't have anything to do in a production environment ;-), but prevents smart optimisations from experienced ones...

These "removed" (now i'm thinking of Java as a development of C++) features (pointers, templates etc.) are features that give C++ its great power and flexibility.

So, Java is good at preventing bad programmers from making bugs, but thus also prevents smart programmers from making smart solutions...

These are my opinions.. Complain if you think i'm wrong...

// Olsner

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[»] Re: Java's way of preventing extra costs
by coder - Aug 10th 2001 15:45:28

I agree.
***Think "Extensibility, Maintainability, Stability" when choosing programming language***

Java is simplified version of C++, and that pissed me off when I started coding in Java, but it has some advantages. First, it is EASIER (read- CHEAPER) to code in Java than in C++ (I don't know about perl or PHP, I don't think anyone has done any studies on the subject). Managers used to say that it takes 1-2 years to become a Java programmer, and it takes 3-6 years of practice to code in C++ well. And so code written in Java is 2-3 times cheaper than that written in C++. Also, Java code is much more easy to read than perl or C++, that means it is good for large projects that must be maintained a long period of time.

Second- speed. Java might be slower than C++ (maybe slower than PHP or perl in some cases), but usually the slow part is the JVM startup. Also- Swing is quite slow and uses a lot of memory. But making web applications with Java where it does JDBC and some String crunching is fast enough for most situations. But the biggest problem is not speed anymore- it is about how fast you can CODE it and.

Third- OOP & OOD. The reason I dumped perl and PHP (I use it for some quick & dirty scripts, but not more) is because of poor support for object oriented programming. Try implementing a few Design Patterns and you will see what I mean. And I have already given up writing bigger projects without OOD. Java is BASED on objects, and it encourages strong OO Design even if you sometimes don't want it.

Fourth- class libraries. Java has strong API. Well, perl has good support here too. C++ is different matter. Most of libraries are C, and quite a lot of C++ libraries are broken or offer not sufficient features. Java libraries are usually enough to do the job. And writing web applications in C++ ://// Tell me if you know any frameworks for this.
Well, I think that should be enough.


--
-- Coder

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[»] Re: Java's way of preventing extra costs
by olsner - Aug 12th 2001 16:00:47

Couldn't agree more! I have also come to the conclusion that development time and maintainability is often more important than running performance. Development speed and maintainability are Java's great strengths. This (I think) outweights Java being so slow. I would like to know what you think: Is Java so much better developing in than it is slower? Also, do you have any experience with how gcc-java executables performs compared to running in a JVM?

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[»] Re: Java's way of preventing extra costs
by coder - Aug 14th 2001 10:44:19

% Also, do you have any experience with
> how gcc-java executables performs
> compared to running in a JVM?
I don't have any experience with gcc-java. I planned to test it as soon as I find time, now when gcc-3.0 was added to debian/unstable.

So far speed of java language was good enough for me, so I wasn't looking for improving JVM. Usually some optimizations in application improve speed more. I am writing web applications, and the biggest speed problem here is Apache-Tomcat. F.e. resin is much faster, but it costs money...


--
-- Coder

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[»] More dribble.
by evarlast - Aug 6th 2001 11:48:59

This is more FUD. I use the right tool for the right job. The fact is that much of the time Linux is the right tool, or can be in the hands of someone who can use it. Another fact is that the number of people who can use Linux effectively is far less than those who can use windows effectively.

This article mentions that Linux costs less than windows. But the TCO of a windows box is usually far less than a Linux box. Backups are easy(you can pay a MCSE $25/yr to run Backup Exec). Where on Linux everything is usually more complicated.

Not to mention that Sun's business practices are more questionable than Microsoft's. The only reason they aren't attacked like Microsoft is a matter of market cap.

Think twice.

--
-J

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[»] ...
by Jinx - Jul 30th 2001 14:36:40

I frankly cannot see the need for all this flaming and ranting... Linux needs to support all the current technologies if it is to succeed in the "Enterprise" league... Java may or may not be the best of languages out there (i don't consider myself an expert to delegate such matters) BUT right now it is generating a lot of hype and Linux is there with it...

True, Sun is "flirting" with it's Linux crowd by allowing bits and pieces of its goodies to be supprted in our favourite OS but then again it chooses to neglect us when it sees fit (JavaComm API anyone?)...
Nevertheless, it should be no cause for a civil war between Linux developers...

My view of the whole Linux experience so far has been that I (as a developer) have the option of using any tool available (be that Java, Perl, PHP, et al.) so I believe it is important that Java (not unlike the rest) is supported in Linux

However, I don't agree with the writers view that Linux NEEDS Java... as I said, Linux needs developers with open minds... Arguing about one's toy being better the others doesn't help things...

...a tool cannot be good or bad, it's what you do with it that counts

--
-- Mean what you say, say what you mean...

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[»] Java r0x, but not now
by Howard The Duck - Aug 1st 2001 17:46:30

hm... time for my narrow minded thoughts. I'm not a developer of anything in "Enterprise" dimensions. My experiences with java are not the best - especially when it comes to installing this stuff. compared to installing apache with php mysql and postgresql on linux it's a pain to do tomcat, apache, java-sdk, mysql, mysql jdbc driver,... also on linux.
community - the Perl, php, mysql, postgres community is far better (maybe not bigger) than the java community is. with better i mean there's a lot more free sample code out there, plus there's a lot more people helping in different newsgroups or web-boards. may it be the buzz-word java or my incompetence, but there's not that many pages out there having "real life" source code for java applets or servlets. There mostly precompiled classes and a small documentation. Well for the newsgroup part java is bigger but after a closer look there's not much more substance in it than in a PHP group. I think having a huge supporting community is very important when trying developing i.e. medium sized webpages at reasonable costs.
speed of java - hm... on my testing machine JSPages are generated far slower than phpages, but again no Java or PHP hero talking to you here - maybe my fault... but try this one - program a audio tool comparable to cubase VST32 or Samplitude 2496. hehe - lacking in audio device support? Java not fast enough? hehe - i know this wont work for a long time with java, especially for professional audio. So java is not the perfect tool for ALL stuff out there. Like every programming language it will find it's place somewhere in a special sector. not likely in the professional CAD or Audio world but probably in many business-sectors.
Java language features - well java is crippled C++. But the language is still in development - as it had no support for Operator Overloading in the beginning, it has that feature now! And rethink how long do c++ compilers exist that fully support templates? is it 3 years or 4 ?? The language was developed quite some time before any "real" c++ compilers came out... same goes for java, the big idea exists but java's too young to tell now if it will succeed or fail.
Fazit - using java is not comfortable for normal users - installing is a pain, it's too complex for programming beginners, its compiler makes former c++ programmers wanna smash the screen ;) plus creating intelligent installers for a product concerning all OS out there is quite hard. Java may be a cross-platform but is not a "cross-application type" programming language. with that in mind it is a useful alternative to develop software without paying a cent for the compiler package. same goes for linux and many other programming languages. Therefore i try to stay open to many alternatives. Things in IT world change very fast - COBOL almost died now and so will C++, JAVA, PERL and all others sometime be banned. the problem is that "sometime" will happen within our life as programmers, so keep your eyes and ears open.
my 2 cents
HTD

--
"...The slightly shorter name C+ is a syntax error ..." page 4, "The C++ Programming language", Bjarne Stroustrup

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[»] NEED A GOOD PROJECT FOR ENGINEERING
by prashant - Jul 28th 2001 10:14:49

Somebody please suggest me a good topic for project related to Networking in linux,.. or anything in linux..

--
I think freshmea.net is the best site for linux tools

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[»] java performance - superstition vs. real numbers
by zilla - Jul 15th 2001 03:45:36

People who make comments about java's performance generally reveal in the process that they've never used java, or at least not in the last few years.

Benchmarks show java as being in the same ballpark as C across multiple types of computation (integer, floating point, etc.). Perl is fast at only one thing: strings -- try doing floating point in perl (really, try it).

See e.g. the java-vs-C benchmark page at www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html,
or search on Tom's hardware for a similar benchmark.

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[»] Re: java performance - superstition vs. real numbers
by Slicer - Jul 17th 2001 08:13:35


> People who make comments about java's
> performance generally reveal in the
> process that they've never used java, or
> at least not in the last few years.
>
> Benchmarks show java as being in the
> same ballpark as C across multiple types
> of computation (integer, floating point,
> etc.). Perl is fast at only one thing:
> strings -- try doing floating point in
> perl (really, try it).
>
> See e.g. the java-vs-C benchmark page
> at
> www.idiom.com/~zilla/Computer/javaCbenchmark.html,
> or search on Tom's hardware for a
> similar benchmark.
>
>
I belive that your statement is somewhat sweeping. I have programmed in Java in the last four months, using a new compiler. Not only did the compiler take longer than any C/C++ compiler I've used, but to RUN the Java programs took 5 times longer. It didn't seem to matter what kind of task is was either. Number crunching, strings, GUIs or internet connections were all much slower than in C/C++.

I think Java has a long way to go and I would perfere it gave up before it gets there.

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[»] Re: java performance - superstition vs. real numbers
by denka4java - Jul 17th 2001 18:18:08

% I belive that your statement is
> somewhat sweeping. I have programmed in
> Java in the last four months, using a
> new compiler. Not only did the compiler
> take longer than any C/C++ compiler I've
> used, but to RUN the Java programs took
> 5 times longer. It didn't seem to matter
> what kind of task is was either. Number
> crunching, strings, GUIs or internet
> connections were all much slower than in
> C/C++.
>
> I think Java has a long way to go and
> I would perfere it gave up before it
> gets there.
This is what may be called sweeping statement, IMO. "To RUN Java programs"... does that include the overhead of starting JVM, too? Anyway, what's the code that runs 5 times slower in Java? If it's not too embarrassing to show it... As of compilation time, I guess, as a professional you are using jikes or fastjavac, no?

Denis.

--
denka

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[»] Cool to see the evolution of this thread.
by denka4java - Jul 14th 2001 22:12:00

It all starts, as usually, with some quick to speak guys who piss off others a lot. So much that usually quiet and, I will say, usually much smarter guys have to step in and try to reason... Like alvays. Like the life is. Have a beer! I will...

Denis.

--
denka

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[»] Re: Cool to see the evolution of this thread.
by Joseph Schlecht - Jul 19th 2001 02:23:31

Amen brother!

--
Joseph S.

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[»] My Tool is better than your Tool
by fuzzytail - Jul 12th 2001 16:51:27

My Tool is better than your Tool and that makes me a better person.

I can also retort to everything you say - and that means I'm not an insecure bigot who has invested too much of my self worth in some specific little artificial corner of existence.

Geeze..

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[»] I'll make it really simple
by BeanerSpace - Jul 12th 2001 10:13:10

Give me an IDE equivalent to VB, be it Java or Python and I'll make the switch. The only reason I've ever VB'd was due to the ability to draw my forms and embed events.

The particular semantics of a language are of little concern for me, programming is programming and I can get it done regarless of the syntax as long as my tools are sharp.

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[»] Re: I'll make it really simple
by mboorshtein - Jul 12th 2001 10:28:06

For java there's FORTE, JBuilder, NetBeans and a whole bunch of others, check out balckdown. For python there's boa-constructor :)

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[»] Re: I'll make it really simple
by Sergio - Jul 14th 2001 14:20:10


> Give me an IDE equivalent to VB, be it
> Java or Python and I'll make the switch.
> The only reason I've ever VB'd was due
> to the ability to draw my forms and
> embed events.
>
> The particular semantics of a language
> are of little concern for me,
> programming is programming and I can get
> it done regarless of the syntax as long
> as my tools are sharp.

Begining the design of an app from its GUI is not the best way to reach a solid and flexible OO design. It forces you to use a real-world based analysis. It may seem good at first to do it, but OO designs that only reflect real-world objects usually lack abstraction and generalization, and easily either become inflexible, or grow indefinitely to meet all variations of the original problem - thus becoming hard to maintain.

If you've developed and maintained your own applications for over one year, you know what I'm talking about.

Most nonsense being said here is from people who never wrote a large app or maintained legacy s/w. Always rewriting from scratch is not viable, so software must be written for maintenance.

Anyhow, I'd discourage anyone from using VB to anything but small apps. It's hell to create good designs and maintainable apps.

--
Sergio Carvalho

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[»] Be flexible
by Peter Becker - Jul 12th 2001 07:22:47

Most people tend to say: use Java or don't use Java. I think we should try to be more flexible in choosing our languages, currently I use a lot of Java because it seems practical but I definitely will try switch to something better designed for the next project (here are my 2c why Java is not well designed: http://www.peterbecker.de/texts/javacritique.html -- very early version, focus is on SW-Engineering/OO aspects).

The question is not if Linux needs Java or not, the question is neither if we should use Java or not, the question should be: is Java the appropriate tool for what you want to do. This is hard to figure out, but it is definitely worth some effort -- the programming language is one of the most important tools in your toolbox and you should choose your tools wisely (but without falling into analysis paralysis).

Trying to do everything with one language is like using a Leatherman to fix a car -- it will evolve into a huge and clumsy tool. And the usual argument that the costs of learning a new language are too high is short-sighted and usually ignores the fact that learning a language might give you some new insight -- esp. when it was hard to learn (assuming it is reasonable well designed).

And don't forget about tools like DBMS or Corba -- they allow you to use a number of different languages in one project. This has some drawbacks due to the overhead in build/deployment management and the fact that you need more skills in your team, but I think it is worth the effort and additionally ensures a clean design -- taking shortcuts across such boundaries is far harder than just declaring a private member public ;-)

Just some late thoughts,
PeterB


PS: PhiRatE -- did you get to use all this languages on your job? When can I start? *g

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[»] Amusement
by Peter Donald - Jul 12th 2001 00:22:23

I am always amused by these kind of discussions. A whole bunch of people who generally have no idea jump up to offer their "opinion" (aka FUD and disinformation).

Here it seems to be anti-Java so I will address that side. The java "is too slow" camp or those who propose solutions like gcj for speed improvements is amusing. If they knew anything about the state of the art they would know that this is in general a fallacy. Some JVMs can also run faster than natively compiled and optimized code (The common example being IBMs JVM vs VisualC++ compiler). At one stage Java was too slow for many things but now this is not really the case.

It is true that there is many things suck in java. Examples include; string manipulation is Unicode and immutable, memory usage is anywhere between 1.4-2.5 times more than c (this is where solutions like gcj and jet come in), startup time is long (will be solved in jdk1.5 via Isolate API) etc. There is plenty more issues with java - especially when you look at some of platform implementations (Swing is a memory hog and when poorly used is slow).

Other things that suck about java include things like we had to wait till jdk1.4 to get basic functionality like file mapping into memory, interaction with native memory, async io etc

Another somewhat amusing stance I noticed was that java is not enterprise ready. Java however happens to be the only platform I know of that already has standard interface for complete suites of enterprise pieces - ie databases, "enterprise" objects, messaging, directory services, user messaging services etc. There are other solutions out there or will be out there in future (ie CORBA is cross vendor, SOAP will be cross vendor, LDAP is cross vendor, ODBC etc) but no complete programatic or conceptual model. Hence why you have seen the relatively quick adoption of J2EE despite some of it's limitations. If anything enterprise represents one of javas success stories.

There also potential sucess stories brewing with the smaller end of spectrum (telephony, set top boxes, gaming consoles etc).

Whether java needs linux or vice versa I am not sure. If you want linux to become a real enterprise platform then java becomes essential. If you want it as a desktop platform then java is not needed (QT is far easier IMHO).

Anyways I assume it is now time for a troll to jump up and say things like; "Linux is already doing X on platform Y" (replace X with some feature you want and Y with the platform like enterprise or embedded). Thats nice but without a standardization process ala JCP and some corporate sponsorship X will continue to be a minority player.

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[»] Re: Amusement
by loungeact - Jul 12th 2001 06:19:50


> I am always amused by these kind of
> discussions. A whole bunch of people
> who
> generally have no idea jump up to
> offer their
> "opinion" (aka FUD and
> disinformation).
>
Which is exactly what you have done.. (your opinions are more valid because.. ? :)


> If they knew
> anything
> about the state of the art they would
> know that this is
> in general a fallacy. Some JVMs can
> also run
> faster than natively compiled and
> optimized
> code (The common example being IBMs
> JVM vs
> VisualC++ compiler). At one stage Java
> was too
> slow for many things but now this is
> not really the
> case.
I think we are all aware of the virtues other JVMs offer. Again right off the discussion topic..


> It is true that there is many things
> suck in java.
Really !? thought it was flawless..

Its very easy to pick a hole in a language and use it as a stick.


> There also potential sucess stories
> brewing with
> the smaller end of spectrum
> (telephony, set top
> boxes, gaming consoles etc).
Yes.. J2ME CLDC / CDC. This was touched upon above. Id question it as 'potential', its a real market evolving and happening right now with standards being agreed with developing companies. It is in one view, already a success. The hurdle of getting the technology there and implemented has been crossed. If it will be used doesnt need answering, the market is lucrative and its not overcrowded yet, nuff said.


> Whether java needs linux or vice versa
> I am not
> sure. If you want linux to become a
> real enterprise
> platform then java becomes essential.
> If you want it
> as a desktop platform then java is not
> needed (QT is
> far easier IMHO).
This wasnt the discussion. The hub was if Sun (and friends) should be pushing it hard on Linux as a competitive answer to .net. Id say definately yes, 'Enterprise' (nice open interpretation buzzword) or not. Whinning and paranoia about Sun because there a big company aside, the two complement themselves very well in a cost effective foundation. The problem IMHO is Sun are, in a way, shooting themselves in the foot over Solaris.


>


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[»] Re: Amusement
by Peter Donald - Jul 12th 2001 07:37:57


>
> % I am always amused by these kind of
>
> % discussions. A whole bunch of
> people
> % who
> % generally have no idea jump up to
> % offer their
> % "opinion" (aka FUD and
> % disinformation).
> %
>
> Which is exactly what you have done..
Don't be stupid. Nothing that I have mentioned is
FUD or disinformation.


> (your opinions are more valid because..
> ? :)
Maybe because I have written my own JVM.
Perhaps because I partipate in JCP (the
organisation that standardizes language specs and
extentions). Perhaps because my work has hit the
barriers in language and also highlighted it's
strengths. Could be because I have used it
essentially since the begining. Any of those answer
will work I guess.


> % If they knew
> % anything
> % about the state of the art they
> would
> % know that this is
> % in general a fallacy. Some JVMs
> can
> % also run
> % faster than natively compiled and
> % optimized
> % code (The common example being
> IBMs
> % JVM vs
> % VisualC++ compiler). At one stage
> Java
> % was too
> % slow for many things but now this
> is
> % not really the
> % case.
>
> I think we are all aware of the
> virtues other JVMs offer. Again right
> off the discussion topic..
Read the responses. There is discussion about this
in previous comments...


> This wasnt the discussion. The hub was
> if Sun (and friends) should be pushing
> it hard on Linux as a competitive answer
> to .net. Id say definately yes,
> 'Enterprise' (nice open interpretation
> buzzword) or not. Whinning and paranoia
> about Sun because there a big company
> aside, the two complement themselves
> very well in a cost effective
> foundation. The problem IMHO is Sun are,
> in a way, shooting themselves in the
> foot over Solaris.
It is not really abour the OS but the hardware. Sun
makes it money from hardware. Trends in linux point
to many light weight boxes to replace the one huge
computer. When the management of clusters
becomes cheaper it will be more cost effective and
reliable to use a farm rather than single computer -
no matter how many CPUs. Pushing Linux could
potentially be very bad for buisness due to the low
cost of x86 based clusters (when they mature).



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[»] Re: Amusement
by fazio82_7 - Sep 19th 2001 12:42:25


> There also potential sucess stories
> brewing with
> the smaller end of spectrum

Right... That's exactly what you all have been saying for 6 years. I'm still waiting.

--
microsoft.com runs linux

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[»] Replies to replies
by mboorshtein - Jul 11th 2001 11:29:49

Ok,
One common thread i am seeing is 'linux isn't a solaris' step up!'. No it isn't, but it's already being used in simmilar fashions by IBM and HP, as well as caldera. Linux is being used as a steping stone to the more traditional high end os'. I am simply giving a reason to sun (ibm, hp...) as to why they should help with improving java on linux.

As for language support and licensing from sun, again there's ibm hp and the open clones. THIS IS AS MUCH A PLEA TO SUN, IBM, HP... AS IT IS TO THE COMMUNITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[reply] [top]

[»] He's Right.
by Idcmp - Jul 11th 2001 11:24:39

Divided we fall.

I've been complaining the same thing as the editor, but there are too many "my way is the only way" people out there to listen.

Sure, Python, Perl, OCmal, Ruby, x86 asm, etc, etc, may be great languages, but they don't have the gigantic push and cash that Sun has been putting into Java.

There are courses offered in Java, certificates that head hunters can look for on resumes, there is Java for small devices, Java for big enterprise-scale solutions. Java has the backing of IBM too, infact the best runtime and compiler for Java right now is not done by Sun, but by IBM. Sun's documentation on their site can take you from knowing nothing about the language to being pretty proficient with it, you can then spend time reading about almost any aspect of Java (from EJB, to JES to the KVM). When you're done you can head over to Inprise and download JBuilder for Linux, or use Sun's Forte, and over to IBM to grab WebSphere, or over to JBoss and setup a system scalable, secure, and powerful enough in you own bedroom to run a national bank.

There's an entire Java-based industry out there.

The Java naysayers; "Java is slow, Sun doesn't support Java on Linux, Sun has absolute control on Java etc.." should also be going on about how "Linux doesn't support 3D, Linux doesn't support SMP, and the GPL is bad", because it's along the same lines.

The editors point is simple. Let's leverage the work being done by Sun and promote Linux as a good OS to run Java on.

Everyone jumped on him, talking about how OCmal is better and how Python is better, etc, etc.. Where's the Python certificates that head hunters can look for, where's the enterprise-scale Python roll-outs? How many web pages use OCmal for their server-side scripting language? The answer is: There aren't any, yet.

And where there are, I'll be behind Python and Ruby, and whatever other languages too. But right now, let's just stop arguing about that, and instead of being used by a big company, use them instead. Sun has cash to throw at Java, so let's use them!

When Microsoft comes out with C# and .NET, there's going to be a flurry of activity and news, and information, and hype, and none of it is going to be on Linux.

United we stand.

[reply] [top]

[»] Re: He's Right.
by Ironstorm - Jul 11th 2001 13:08:36


>
> Divided we fall.
>
> I've been complaining the same thing
> as the editor, but there are too many
> "my way is the only way"
> people out there to listen.
>
> Sure, Python, Perl, OCmal, Ruby, x86
> asm, etc, etc, may be great languages,
> but they don't have the gigantic push
> and cash that Sun has been putting into
> Java.
>
Are you kidding?

You are saying there are too many people
saying my way is the only way and in
the next paragraph you say we should use
Java because Sun has the money to push it...

What smack are you on?

Java isn't write once, run anywhere...

The only thing that Java has to offer for itself
is that it is object based and runs on more
then 1 platform. That's all it has in 6+ years
of development.

Java is useless as a Client side development
language... don't tell me this is not true...
look at Limewire, on my 2x 800MHz CPU box
at home it is slow... It's a pig.

Java doesn't scale, it never has and
it may never... yet to be seen...


> JBoss and setup a system scalable,
> secure, and powerful enough in you own
> bedroom to run a national bank.
Please I beg you... show me one application
written in Java/J2EE that scales to the extent
it could support a national bank...


> The editors point is simple. Let's
> leverage the work being done by Sun and
> promote Linux as a good OS to run Java
> on.
If Sun has the money, they can pimp their
own product, I will use what ever is best
for the job...

You are missing the point of Linux...
Linux is freedom to choose, freedom
not to choose Microsoft, not to choose
Sun, but to choose between MANY
alternatives.

Competition is good, the more competitors
the better.

O'lay!

-Ironstorm

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---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by Idcmp - Jul 11th 2001 14:07:02



> You are saying there are too many people
> saying my way is the only way and in
> the next paragraph you say we should
> use Java because Sun has the money to push
I'm not saying you should use Java, I'm essentially saying that you should cut Sun some slack, and possibly add Java to the skill set you already have. Chances are you program in at least 3-4 languages already, and when your company decides it wants to use Java, remember to mention Linux and that Linux is a great platform for Java.


> Java isn't write once, run anywhere...
And Linux has no usable desktop. Next.


> The only thing that Java has to offerfor itself
> is that it is object based and runs on more
> then 1 platform. That's all it has in 6+ years
> of development.
That's one way of looking at it, if you ignore everything else that's been going on in the past 5+ years.


> If Sun has the money, they can pimp
> their own product, I will use what ever is
> best for the job...
Then you can expect to have Linux trampled on in the upcoming fight of Microsoft vs Sun.


> Linux is freedom to choose, freedom
> not to choose Microsoft, not to
> choose Sun, but to choose between MANY
> alternatives.
You just shot down my choice to use Java on Linux, and flamed me and Java in the process.


> Competition is good, the more competitors the better.
Too much competition causes over saturation and nobody benefits, not customers, not companies, not developers, not Linux.




[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by Ironstorm - Jul 11th 2001 14:29:35


>
> % Competition is good, the more
> competitors the better.
>
> Too much competition causes over
> saturation and nobody benefits,
> not customers, not companies, not
> developers, not Linux.
>
Having lots of competition with the ability to
interoperate via standards of data exchange
(ala XML) negates this argument.

Both consumers and companies can benefit
from the absence of vendor/platform
lock in (except vendors, i.e. Sun) -> the
price point can then approach 0... 0 is
a very good number have in the expense
column for anyone.

The computer hardware industry is an
example of this... the cost of PCs is
continously falling, there are tons of PC
vendors - Dell, Compaq, IBM, mypcshop.com
- building PCs out many different types of
hard drives, video cards, etc... All of
which interoperate.

This good for both corperate customers and
consumers at large.

More competition > Less competition.


[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by Idcmp - Jul 11th 2001 22:53:33



> The computer hardware industry is an
> example of this... the cost of PCs is
> continously falling, there are tons of
> PC vendors - Dell, Compaq, IBM,
> mypcshop.com - building PCs out many different
> types of hard drives, video cards, etc... All
> of which interoperate.
Good example. How many different video card vendors
are there out there that do their own hardware? ATI,
Matrox and then all the NVidia licensed cards.. How many
of those do 3D, fast, and well? The NVidia ones.

How many different types of CPUs are there in your average PC? (I'll ignore the PPC guys for now :), There's 1. An x86 compatable one. How many different vendors? Two (or three if IBM still makes Cyrix), AMD and Intel.

Soundcards? There's the cheap crystal sound stuff and there's Creative Labs (yes, there are a lot of others, but those are the main ones).

Hard drives? I don't even know anymore. Quantum was bought by Seagate or something? We'll say there are 3-4.

Java has name recognition among businesses now. Imagine if whenever someone thought "Java" they thought "and of course we'd use Linux to run it on."

It'd be like people saying "Well, we bought an Intel Pentium, of course we'll run Linux on it."



[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by John - Jul 11th 2001 14:40:58


>
> Please I beg you... show me one
> application
> written in Java/J2EE that scales to
> the extent
> it could support a national bank...
>
American Express, Banc of America Securities, Banco Zaragozano (heh), Bank of America, Bank of China, Bank of Ireland, Bank of New York, Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, Bank One Coporation, Banque de France, Banque Nationale De Paris, Capitol One, Chase Manhattan, Citigroup, Commerzbank, Coutts Bank, Credit Agricole, Credit al Industrie, Credit Lyonnais, Credit Mutuel d'Anjou, Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Fannie Mae, Fidelity Investments, First Union Corporation, First USA, FleetBoston, Freddie Mac, GoldBank, Goldman Sachs, Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, Italian Ministry of Finance, J.P. Morgan, Lehman Brothers, MasterCard, MBNA, Mellon Financial, Royal Bank of Canada, Royal Bank of Scotland, Sumitomo Bank, Union Bank of Switerzland, U.S. Bancorp, Wachovia, and Wells Fargo are just a few examples of large banks or bank-like corporations that have successfully deployed enterprise scale solutions running in Java on BEA's Weblogic.

Here are some customer profiles describing the applications:

http://www.bea.com/solutions/capitalone.shtml
http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/chase.shtml
http://www.bea.com/solutions/citigroup.shtml
http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/deutschebank.shtml
http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/etrade.shtml
http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/italianminfinance.shtml
http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/royalbank_scotland.shtml

Hey and I don't even work for/with BEA. I just think their product kicks ass and I've seen Java do amazing things. I hate to see people shooting their mouths off about stuff they don't know, and unfortunately this forum is full of it... not just in the message I'm replying to either, but just about all of them. This is ridiculous.

[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by Ironstorm - Jul 11th 2001 14:59:50


>
> %
> % Please I beg you... show me one
> % application
> % written in Java/J2EE that scales
> to
> % the extent
> % it could support a national
> bank...
> %
>
> Here are some customer profiles
> describing the applications:
>
>
> http://www.bea.com/solutions/capitalone.shtml
>
> http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/chase.shtml
>
> http://www.bea.com/solutions/citigroup.shtml
>
> http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/deutschebank.shtml
>
> http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/etrade.shtml
>
> http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/italianminfinance.shtml
>
> http://www.bea.com/customers/profiles/royalbank_scotland.shtml
>
Links are good, except I was looking for
large scale applications developed in J2EE,
not press releases about customers who have
licensed BEA's weblogic app servers...

The only one on that list that has an APPLICATION
to show for there license of any significance is
e*trade's mutal fund program... I haven't used
e*trade so, I can't judge it's sucess... interesting
that there is some evidence to suggest it can be
done though. :)

My company is evaluating Websphere (from IBM),
but we haven't built an enterprise scale
application with it yet... we are not even
sure if it will scale.

-Ironstorm

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---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by mboorshtein - Jul 11th 2001 16:51:13

Iron Storm, Your full of SH*T. Doesn't scale? No one uses it? I don't know if they still publish it, but Devx.com's enterprise today is nothing but case studies at the enterprise level in several technologies, including java. How about schwab and home depot (yes i know, not a bank). AND THIS WAS A YEAR AGO!!!!!!

[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by Ironstorm - Jul 18th 2001 17:15:44


> Your full of SH*T.
Aren't we all?


> Doesn't scale? No
> one uses it? I don't know if they still
> publish it, but Devx.com's enterprise
Why don't they publish what they are using
it for or let BEA or Sun or IBM publish how
great it is? Maybe they do in the US, and
it just doesn't make it up to Canada....


> bank). AND THIS WAS A YEAR AGO!!!!!!
Must be some of the first fully J2EE compliant
stuff ever done.

MS is ditch Java off of XP... that's cute....
and it's gonna be painful for Java on the client
side...

-Ironstorm

[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by fill16 - Jul 13th 2001 17:11:46


>
> Please I beg you... show me one
> application
> written in Java/J2EE that scales to
> the extent
> it could support a national bank... OpenAdaptor, written by a bank.

Andy

[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: He's Right.
by jf - Jul 11th 2001 15:06:37

Well ...

I am using Java on Linux and i am very happy with it building a kinda bigger publishing system. The first generation years ago had been a Perl implementation. To complicated to manage 100.000+ lines of code ..

This version runs some sites already saving lots of money for the users and generating income for me.

So, without Java and Linux the whole process would have been harder at least.

I also use PHP and Perl as well as VB on the Client side. Its always fun to find the latest Bug after a new service pack or DLL comes up. MS-XML? Which version? Which namespace error ... Oh well. But even in this not so perfect environment VB makes a bit of sense here an there.

The author`s point is, that Linux and Java could help each other big time and thats absolutely true. If Java and Linux are a good match, or a bad one, this won`t hurt a Linux/Perl or any Phytonic solution.

Its not about the only solution to a problem. If the Sun JDKS sucks, try IBMs ... If tool A sucks, try tool B.

These religious wars are from last century.

Just do not waste your time in these worthless fights and just write better products.

My app runs on Windows too .. thanks to Java. But it is slower (overall performance on linux very good ... but an appserver ain't no graphics engine which should use C or whatever..) and anything on Windows is more instable. So i am not endorsing it.

So for me Java and Linux is a good match. Plain easy. If a Perl solution makes sense, well .. i am using mod_perl etc.

And ... the internet market is not dead.

Juergen

[reply] [top]

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[»] Let them conform to us...
by Peter Petrakis - Jul 11th 2001 11:14:11

Python has the potential to be a cross platform OO distributed component system. It will still need an application framework and something that is 'not' I repeat not tied to gnome or kde but plays nice with X in general and other OS settings.

Another option is bell labs inferno VM which is really their plan 9 OS. It's fast, it's clean, & the source is available. It's also faster than Java and more flexible, my opinion.

We could LEAD with a new component model that would first encompass all unices, MAC, & Be. Then the windows commmunity can then say to themselves like it seems the linux community is doing now with .NET. "Gee the water looks warm over there, I think I'll take a dip". It doesn't have to be an assault against .NET alone. Delphi is a perfect example of a programming model that was considered better than VB and still has to this day obvious advantages like SPEED.

You want to start a fight? First you have to pick your target.

Peter

[reply] [top]

[»] beyond internet application serving
by loungeact - Jul 11th 2001 10:37:56

So far the discussion has avoided one of Suns aces in the pack..
The whole wireless entertainment market is estimated at 5 billion in 2005. Sun has a nice solution 'ready to go' with J2ME / CLDC. The key thing is you have the worlds leading manufactures sitting round a table, listening and actually doing it in Java (in the lucrative wireless market with Nokia and friends). Arguably, love / hate a language, its only as useful as the pay check it brings with it and in this pretty much virgin territory Sun has a solution with Java. Anyone know of Python mobile in the making...

[reply] [top]

[»] Re: beyond internet application serving
by Ironstorm - Jul 11th 2001 12:50:45


> Python mobile in the making...
It's called pippy...
It's a python interpreter that runs on my Palm m100...
You can look it up.


[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: beyond internet application serving
by Sergio - Jul 14th 2001 13:52:52


>
> It's a python interpreter that runs on
> my Palm m100...
>
Your Palm m100 is 10 to 20 times better than most cell phones J2ME is riding on - assuming memory and CPU power as two axes producing computer power as an area in a graph.


--
Sergio Carvalho

[reply] [top]

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[»] Java, the new concept of programming: IF (), WHEN (), SHOULD (), MAY ()
by garfycx - Jul 11th 2001 09:58:23

What really disturbs me are all these variable conditions you draw to make us believe in Javas constant success...

But from top to bottom:

> the Web is constantly changing

Why not and why python and others should not be the ones who do that?

> There is already JBoss

There is already much in many languages...

> available for free and completely community supported

except the language used!

> Java is not an easy language to learn for beginners

Even professionals decide for scripting languages because of effectiveness in specific case

> The first is the myriad of languages that will run on Java,
> the most popular of which is JPython.
> The second is the JNI (Java Native Interface).
> The JNI allows Java to call native code in C/C++, Python, Perl,
> or any other language with a JNI binding.

You could use them directly! Why should one brake out his most loved language for Java. For an example one can serve servlets with PHP. If one really wants Java one will write in Java. If one wants to program in C/C++ one can use their libraries. Maybe you really believe that only Java comes with libraries and classes for the internet. And browsers could plug in not only Java Virtual Machines but just security-proofed bindings to locally installed interpreters. This would be the better way in any case, even for Java. But I don't only need performance, I would like to manipulate HTML objects with languages other than JavaScript. Even Java doesn't give me that!

> Java is not exactly known as the fastest system in existence, but the future...

Yeah, here begins what I mentioned in the Subject!

> This is where Sun should come in...

Will they?

> Sun now owns Cobalt...

And whom next? >

If GCJ can be completed...

Doesn't it work right now? So I will wait and stay with PHP ;-) And if it then is platform dependant... (You know what I mean?)

> Sun can have high-performance...

Nice! How does it help me now?

> There is another reason Sun should work with the community...

You should tell it to them and not to us!

> Finally, there is a reason for Sun to help increase Java's integration with languages
> such as Python and Perl.

Look up one answer!

> All of these pieces fit together to allow a beautiful friendship between Sun and Linux.

If they like (or want) to, they can do. But does this mean, that other friendships are to be laid down?

> Once a company is ready to move from small server appliances to enterprise servers,
> who are they going to call? You guessed it: Sun.

And this is the aim of linux community?

> Sun, Linux, and the Open Source Community could make a great team to help
> extend the causes of everyone involved.

Yes, they COULD but must not. Others could and can do actually. Will Java beat them? Is that an advantage? Under what circumstances? Maybe IF Sun thinks about their licensing model etc. There is much to talk on first.

Really, there is not even one single argument in your essay that sticks out why one MUST follow your opinion. There is nothing on it making Java the most needed language. And there are too many dependencies that are not controlled by you or us.

Come back later...

[reply] [top]

[»] Linux Needs Java ish
by loungeact - Jul 11th 2001 09:50:22

It seems to be looking at it from 'vendor (be it sun, hp or anyone else) should look to try and strengthen and develop the Java/Linux relationship'. To that extent, it is hard to comment any other way.

I think, more fundamentally, if the view of working together is adopted then the 'Java/Linux vs .net' attitude must also be dropped. Doing so creates the fruitless arguments over whats better or not and leads to ' x product by x sucks'. Of course .net will do some things right, even better than Java while Java will have its own strengths.

Unfortunately, the hole is that Linux is simply not a commerically appealing option for most vendors (this is open to much argument I know..)
The .net plan most certainly is and, in a time when IT cost cutting is in full swing and likely to be for some time, the companies such as HP will go with the more profitable option and no one can blame them. It is of course, very appealing to the informed customer who wants to save where possible.
Bottom line is, I think your argument is totally right and the relationship should be helped as much as possible to 'rival' but not compete with .net. To what extent this will happen depends totally on the profits avaliable by doing so, .net will, I think, be a spot of light in terms of vendors making money, a low powered but effective Java/Linux platform probably wont be the cash-cow that a .net solution will be to its suppliers so its development perhaps isnt on the forefront of many vendors horizons I fear.

[reply] [top]

[»] I think these comments miss the point
by mboorshtein - Jul 11th 2001 09:13:47

I think all of these comments are missing the point of this editorial. I am a die-hard linux fan. I use python, C, C++, VB (unfortunatly) and ASP (see previous). This isn't about the age old "Sun Sucks" argument. This article is meant for sun as much as for the community. Has sun neglected linux in the past, yes, but I'm saying that it's in everyone's best interest to WORK TOGETHER.

While this editorial was written towords sun, there ARE other's in the Java game, namely IBM and HP. While I would love to see sun open java up, I am not worried. As was mentioned above java is not a religeon.

To respond to attacks on what I've said about the current state of Linux in "Enterprise" functionality, Java is a great integration platform, hence JNI, RMI-IIOP, EJB, XML-RPC, SOAP and anything else you want to integrate with it. The EJB2.0 Specs require RMI-IIOP, thus allowing tight integration with CORBA.

I'm not going to respond to the cry of "OOP sucks". OOP, as everything else, has it's place.

.NET is comming, and anyone who thinks it's going no where fast is kidding themselves. This idea has been re-inforced by the anouncement of dotGNU and Mono. It has also been re-inforced by the GNOME and Bonnobo project.

This is a call to work together, not to fight.

[reply] [top]

[»] I'm sorry, did we forget about somebody here?
by Craig - Jul 11th 2001 07:02:37

I hate to be a naysayer but did we forget about our little buddy Solaris during this great brainstorm?

Sun doesn't really care about bringing Java support to Linux. In fact, things like Blackdown and JBoss are around it seems inspite of Sun's ignoring Linux almost completely. I guess we should atleast be lucky that Sun is releasing a fully endored JVM for Linux now, but as far as the operating system du jour for Sun it's going to be Solaris, and they show no signs of changing that.

That's because Solaris foremost supports Sun's core business: selling big fat servers. Having Linux around doesn't help their core business. Remember, vendors sorta like vendor lock-in, don't they? It keeps you buying their stuff. If Java is an open platform (as open as Sun is comfortable with, but i'll talk about that in a second) they have to have a way to keep you buying those big E4500s, that's by having the best platform for Java, and catering to the buyers that purchase enterprise class servers: big enterprises.

And don't forget the whole licensing impedance. Sun likes to make Java as "open" and "cross-platform" as they feel comfortable with yet still keep it under strict Sun control. They brow-beat Microsoft for that one. Which is probably what spawned this whole .NET and C# hubbub. "You may have won the battle, Scott McNealy, but you haven't won the war!", shreiks Bill Gates with his fist waving in the air. The problem is that Sun's tendency to control just won't jive with the Linux crowd, which will always strive to be open.

It may seem like a match made in heaven, but I don't think either one is ready to sign the prenup.

http://unixpunx.org

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[»] cold coffee anybody?
by wibble - Jul 11th 2001 06:24:42

Java has a number of disadvantages which just haven't been addressed in the 6 years or so that it's been out there... There are two distinct markets for a programming language, big and small applications. Java might be useful for a BIG project ie loads of simultaneous developers who have difficulty communicating :-) However, for most of us who have "small" projects with less than 10 simulaneous developers...

Firstly, its slow... even compared with plain interpreted perl (don't bother comparing it against mod_perl :-)

Secondly, its quite difficult to deploy to a clients' machine... install.sh anybody?

[reply] [top]

[»] Re: cold coffee anybody?
by Craig - Jul 11th 2001 07:12:14

If I may, I'd like to address these 2 common misconceptions really quickly...
> Firstly, its slow... even compared
> with plain interpreted perl (don't
> bother comparing it against mod_perl
> :-) Don't tell that to the people who've discovered the Caucho application server, atleast. You want benchmarks, you got em
> Secondly, its quite difficult to
> deploy to a clients' machine...
> install.sh anybody? The whole point of having platform independent Java is that the code is going to be running in the Java environment, not the native one. Then again, who needs to install when you just package up all your portable byte code into a wonderfully elegant cross platform parcel called a JAR and distrbute that? So even if you are sloppy and your Java runs slower than another compiled language the user will make it up now having to spread out your tar ball and compile it themselves.

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[»] Re: cold coffee anybody?
by Todd - Jul 11th 2001 14:37:47


> % Firstly, its slow... even compared
> % with plain interpreted perl (don't
> % bother comparing it against
> mod_perl
> % :-)
>
>
> Don't tell that to the people who've
> discovered the Caucho application
> server, atleast. You want benchmarks,
> you got em
>
Not really trying to pick sides, but I don't think I'd really trust benchmarks that put java on top from a company that is trying to sell java


[reply] [top]

---

[»] Re: cold coffee anybody?
by Nils O. Selåsdal - Jul 11th 2001 11:48:32


> Java has a number of disadvantages which
> just haven't been addressed in the 6
> years or so that it's been out there...
> There are two distinct markets for a
> programming language, big and small
> applications. Java might be useful for
> a BIG project ie loads of simultaneous
> developers who have difficulty
> communicating :-) However, for most of
> us who have "small" projects with less
> than 10 simulaneous developers...
>
> Firstly, its slow... even compared
> with plain interpreted perl (don't
> bother comparing it against mod_perl
> :-)
Do you have any benchmarks to prove this, or are you
using a very old VM, with not for of JIT compiler?
> Secondly, its quite difficult to
> deploy to a clients' machine...
> install.sh anybody?
Ant, jakarta.apache.org Or InstallShield for java.
>
> The only thing that java has going for
> it is marketing... it's fully buzzword
> compliant... unfortunately for us
> techies... this is not a good thing
The fact that you can write apps in 'notime', and still
maintain clean code with a good and extensible design doesnt matter?! (i have yet to see that in a perl application)

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[»] Re: cold coffee anybody?
by wibble - Jul 12th 2001 03:51:41


> Do you have any benchmarks to prove
> this, or are
> you using a very old VM, with not for
> of JIT
> compiler? "perl -Tw hello.pl" -v- "java Hello" try it for yourself...
> % Secondly, its quite difficult to
> % deploy to a clients' machine...
> % install.sh anybody?
> Ant, jakarta.apache.org
> Or InstallShield for java.
I've used these... but for ant... you need a working java environment... etc...




> % The only thing that java has going
> for
> % it is marketing... it's fully buzzword
> % compliant... unfortunately for us
> % techies... this is not a good thing
> The fact that you can write apps in
> 'notime', and still maintain clean
> code with a good and
> extensible design doesnt matter?! (i
> have yet to see that in a perl
> application)
quite simply it take more lines of code to do simple things in java... simple one liners in perl take a page in java with imports... regex anybody? $t =~ s/^k.*(\d+)\s+(\d+).*(\d+).*$/$3/s; print $2.$1;

the more lines of code there are the higher the chances of a mistake... and the harder it is to prove a program is correct. Java is just as obscure as the next language... oo with lots of files just makes things harder to keep a track of in your head... C++ is worse in this regard... wonderful for world class experts, but in the hands of normal people it just doesn't cut it...

i've been at this game for 20 years and i've seen more "wonderful" languages than i care to remember... java just doesn't do it... perl ain't it either... but its a hell of a lot closer! oh... and you don't have licencing issues...


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[»] Re: cold coffee anybody?
by alois - Jul 12th 2001 16:27:19


> [... snip ...]
> quite simply it take more lines of
> code to do simple things in java...
> simple one liners in perl take a page in
> java with imports... regex anybody? $t
> =~ s/^k.*(\d+)\s+(\d+).*(\d+).*$/$3/s;
> print $2.$1;
I tend to not involve in language discussions because it's usually "religious". But this is just a bit too much bullsh.. !

Eric S. Raymond, as undisputed an authority as can you can have and an EX Perl institution, states that he doesn't use Perl anymore for anything with more than a couple lines.
Why ? Because Perl code is very HARD to maintain and very errorprone.
It's also the COMPLEXITY of the lines that counts.
And, of course, Mr. Perl shows off using a regex; as if only Perl had regex and as if regular expressions were the solution to every problem.

Listening to Perl people I see how true that old chinese saying is:
- A simple-minded man doesn't understand the world and knows it.
- A wise man knows that the world is complex and tries to understand it.
- A stupid man doesn't know about the world but thinks he knows it.

> the more lines of code there are the
> higher the chances of a mistake... and
> the harder it is to prove a program is
> correct. Java is just as obscure as the
> next language... oo with lots of files
> just makes things harder to keep a track
> of in your head... C++ is worse in this
> regard... wonderful for world class
> experts, but in the hands of normal
> people it just doesn't cut it...
OO is probably the single most important thing in software development, in particular for non-experts. And experts tried hard to use their mastery of "C" in order to design as object-oriented as possible. Do you need OO in scripting ? Sometimes, maybe often, not. But then, scripting isn't about developing major applications.
Scripting is, in summary, about creating a solution ("quick and dirty") for a problem that isn't worth (or can't afford) a long full-blown development. The solution must not be nice, neither fast; its just needs to get the job done.
Software development, somewhat to the contrary, is about developing a powerful, fast, elegant (add your attributes ...) that is worth and can afford a full-blown deveopment cycle.

The fact that some people use a scripting language, in
particular Perl, for big projects typically has more to do with not mastering other, more appropriate, languages than with Perl being adequate for major software development.
In fact, more and companies have a no-Perl policy for anything but small scripts.


> i've been at this game for 20 years
> and i've seen more "wonderful"
> languages than i care to remember...
> java just doesn't do it... perl ain't it
> either... but its a hell of a lot
> closer! oh... and you don't have
> licencing issues... Well, I didn't see that many "wonderful" languages. In fact, the only languages that claim quite openly and often to be "THE" language are Java and Perl.

Some other comments (on statements made above:
- Yes, Sun seems to keep Java quite "public" and free. But: If they please, they close the door tomorrow morning.

- No, Java apps isn't fun to install. Often enough there are competing JVMs piling up on my disk and often enough they are downloading more needed classes .

Is there THE language for web-development ? I doubt it.
I personally use - potentially C(++) enhanced - Python. But I wouldn't dare to put that as a bold "exclusive truth" statement.



--
Be smart - Microsoft doesn't pay you. We, your customers, do !

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